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	<title>Comments on: To Spank or Not To Spank</title>
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	<link>http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/</link>
	<description>Thoughts on God and life from a Christian perspective</description>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-22382</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 May 2011 19:58:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-22382</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a survivor of experiencing sexual abuse who chose to seek professional psychotherapy late in life.  I suffered from a spanking fetish in deep secrete shame all my young life.  Once in therapy I suffered PTSD flash backs where I vividly recalled multiple memories I&#039;d blocked out by erotically sexualizing them where my mother calmly ritually unbuttoned my trousers and then lowered them and my underware and then order me to bend over her knees for a spanking.  It wasn&#039;t until in therapy I was able to makes sense that I was being sexually aroused by the undressing as a preadolescent boy, but in therapy I was able to break through the dissociative sexual emotional survival technique of being eroticised by the act.  I later recalled internally detecting the &quot;pleasure&quot; in my mother&#039;s repressed smile with her orders to submit to her punishment and the gleam in her eyes as she prepared me for my spanking.  Many, not all adults have sexual feelings for spanking.  Alot that do swear they never were spanked or don&#039;t remember it.  Experiencing sexual trauma from spanking doesn&#039;t always mean the victim was directly spanked I learned in therapy, a child can indeed be traumatized by seeing or hearing the act, as fear of a threat can be just as real as the act to oneself.  

Christian religions refuse to believe most anything that contradicts their beliefs and or the &quot;Bible&quot;.  Indeed my mother whom I&#039;m convince was subconsciosly enjoying erotic sexual feelings which she repressed so she thought for the incestual taboos regarding it I&#039;m certain felt obedient to her religious morals and Biblical commands all the while she spanked me.  Most good parents who suffer from sexual spanking fetishes MUST separate in their minds sexual feelings they may have about spanking from their children.  Sadly the their subconscious sexual needs motivate them and their social and relgious norms consciously reward them when they spank.  So the cycle of ignorant covert unconscious and in some instances &quot;conscious&quot; sexual abuse passes from one generation to another.    Is this a common occurance?  No, but do a small percentage of children suffer adult sexual abuse symptoms for child spanking, yes.  I believe in discipline which includes some punishment for children but NEVER spanking.   I share an excellent lay person&#039;s resource from a professional sexual and mental health expert to explain how this ignorant sexual abuse happens:  

I&#039;ve referenced a fairly new book publication by a very impressive clinical
sexolgy practitioner. It&#039;s underpinnings are academic and scientific but it
was written for the lay person. Titled, &quot;Regression A Universal Experience&quot; 
Copyrighted 2003

The author, Averil Marie Doyle is a Clinical Supervisor for the American
Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, The American Board of Sexology,
and the American Board of Sex Educators, Councelors, and Therapists.

But I&#039;ll share just a few passages from the authors book to make my point that
adult spanking exchanges are OK but anyone who is using those same acts on their
children is risking altering their childs sexuality, and in doing so is taking
away potentially their childs freedom to develope their own sexuality freely.

I quote Dr. Doyle&#039;s book,

&quot;Regression is a strange and disquieting experience. It is like reliving the
past, through the perceptions and feelings of oneself as a child. All of us
have had experiences from infancy through adolescence that we have been unable
to integrate. At a preconscious level, the memory of those experiences still
actively affects our thoughts and behaviors...Distortions and overreaction
characterize the responses of the regressed person, who becomes childlike in a
flood of confused feelings and sensations...These regressive sensations are
often linked to physical touch, sensuality, and eroticism....As infants, we
associate closeness, warmth, and touch with being cared for or loved. Touch and
closeness can also be associated with fear and abuse. This occurs when infants
are mishandled by their caregivers or when infants mispercieve the connection
between caregivers and sensations of pain and pleasure they might experience in
the presence of caregivers. Warmth and closeness can thus be linked or
associated with fear,abuse,and pain. Infantile sensations of genital pleasure
and pain create memory traces long before cognitive memories are formed.&quot;


&quot;Sexual regression is not behign. There is little doubt that regression caused
by erotic assault experiences, whether actual or percieved as such by the
regression bearer, has significant and deleterious effect on psychosexual
development.&quot;

&quot;Many unintented teachings are set in motion when rough handling, discipline, or
corporal punishment is utilized in child rearing. Unfortuntately, parents, and
caregivers are often unaware of the deleterious impact their behavior has upon
the developing child.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a survivor of experiencing sexual abuse who chose to seek professional psychotherapy late in life.  I suffered from a spanking fetish in deep secrete shame all my young life.  Once in therapy I suffered PTSD flash backs where I vividly recalled multiple memories I&#8217;d blocked out by erotically sexualizing them where my mother calmly ritually unbuttoned my trousers and then lowered them and my underware and then order me to bend over her knees for a spanking.  It wasn&#8217;t until in therapy I was able to makes sense that I was being sexually aroused by the undressing as a preadolescent boy, but in therapy I was able to break through the dissociative sexual emotional survival technique of being eroticised by the act.  I later recalled internally detecting the &#8220;pleasure&#8221; in my mother&#8217;s repressed smile with her orders to submit to her punishment and the gleam in her eyes as she prepared me for my spanking.  Many, not all adults have sexual feelings for spanking.  Alot that do swear they never were spanked or don&#8217;t remember it.  Experiencing sexual trauma from spanking doesn&#8217;t always mean the victim was directly spanked I learned in therapy, a child can indeed be traumatized by seeing or hearing the act, as fear of a threat can be just as real as the act to oneself.  </p>
<p>Christian religions refuse to believe most anything that contradicts their beliefs and or the &#8220;Bible&#8221;.  Indeed my mother whom I&#8217;m convince was subconsciosly enjoying erotic sexual feelings which she repressed so she thought for the incestual taboos regarding it I&#8217;m certain felt obedient to her religious morals and Biblical commands all the while she spanked me.  Most good parents who suffer from sexual spanking fetishes MUST separate in their minds sexual feelings they may have about spanking from their children.  Sadly the their subconscious sexual needs motivate them and their social and relgious norms consciously reward them when they spank.  So the cycle of ignorant covert unconscious and in some instances &#8220;conscious&#8221; sexual abuse passes from one generation to another.    Is this a common occurance?  No, but do a small percentage of children suffer adult sexual abuse symptoms for child spanking, yes.  I believe in discipline which includes some punishment for children but NEVER spanking.   I share an excellent lay person&#8217;s resource from a professional sexual and mental health expert to explain how this ignorant sexual abuse happens:  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve referenced a fairly new book publication by a very impressive clinical<br />
sexolgy practitioner. It&#8217;s underpinnings are academic and scientific but it<br />
was written for the lay person. Titled, &#8220;Regression A Universal Experience&#8221;<br />
Copyrighted 2003</p>
<p>The author, Averil Marie Doyle is a Clinical Supervisor for the American<br />
Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, The American Board of Sexology,<br />
and the American Board of Sex Educators, Councelors, and Therapists.</p>
<p>But I&#8217;ll share just a few passages from the authors book to make my point that<br />
adult spanking exchanges are OK but anyone who is using those same acts on their<br />
children is risking altering their childs sexuality, and in doing so is taking<br />
away potentially their childs freedom to develope their own sexuality freely.</p>
<p>I quote Dr. Doyle&#8217;s book,</p>
<p>&#8220;Regression is a strange and disquieting experience. It is like reliving the<br />
past, through the perceptions and feelings of oneself as a child. All of us<br />
have had experiences from infancy through adolescence that we have been unable<br />
to integrate. At a preconscious level, the memory of those experiences still<br />
actively affects our thoughts and behaviors&#8230;Distortions and overreaction<br />
characterize the responses of the regressed person, who becomes childlike in a<br />
flood of confused feelings and sensations&#8230;These regressive sensations are<br />
often linked to physical touch, sensuality, and eroticism&#8230;.As infants, we<br />
associate closeness, warmth, and touch with being cared for or loved. Touch and<br />
closeness can also be associated with fear and abuse. This occurs when infants<br />
are mishandled by their caregivers or when infants mispercieve the connection<br />
between caregivers and sensations of pain and pleasure they might experience in<br />
the presence of caregivers. Warmth and closeness can thus be linked or<br />
associated with fear,abuse,and pain. Infantile sensations of genital pleasure<br />
and pain create memory traces long before cognitive memories are formed.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Sexual regression is not behign. There is little doubt that regression caused<br />
by erotic assault experiences, whether actual or percieved as such by the<br />
regression bearer, has significant and deleterious effect on psychosexual<br />
development.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Many unintented teachings are set in motion when rough handling, discipline, or<br />
corporal punishment is utilized in child rearing. Unfortuntately, parents, and<br />
caregivers are often unaware of the deleterious impact their behavior has upon<br />
the developing child.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: mark</title>
		<link>http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-22312</link>
		<dc:creator>mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2011 09:54:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-22312</guid>
		<description>I am still grappling with the idea ahy many women like Becca oppose spanking. For me, it&#039;s their position in the school system. They were admitted to the Teaching Certificate program after they responded in a certain way on the questionnaire! I wasn&#039;t admitted, so I am a living proof. What doomed my application, was that I stood up against scatology in art, the removal of the word &quot;God&quot; from my graduate thesis, the teaching children that homosexuality is not sanctioned in the bible, that abortion is &quot;a womens&#039; reproductive right, that spanking to prevent crime is a crime, etc. With all due respect, Becca, can you deny what I have said? Can you also deny that you answered on the Teacher&#039;s Certification application, that &quot;you are actively involved in a cappaign that all children be loved and wanted ... except the aborted children&quot;? You cannot. There are millions of women like you, who are now against spanking! They &quot;man&quot; the U.S. school  boards, family courts, abortion clinics. They are the ones who swear that Bible is not for spanking. But they are wrong!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am still grappling with the idea ahy many women like Becca oppose spanking. For me, it&#8217;s their position in the school system. They were admitted to the Teaching Certificate program after they responded in a certain way on the questionnaire! I wasn&#8217;t admitted, so I am a living proof. What doomed my application, was that I stood up against scatology in art, the removal of the word &#8220;God&#8221; from my graduate thesis, the teaching children that homosexuality is not sanctioned in the bible, that abortion is &#8220;a womens&#8217; reproductive right, that spanking to prevent crime is a crime, etc. With all due respect, Becca, can you deny what I have said? Can you also deny that you answered on the Teacher&#8217;s Certification application, that &#8220;you are actively involved in a cappaign that all children be loved and wanted &#8230; except the aborted children&#8221;? You cannot. There are millions of women like you, who are now against spanking! They &#8220;man&#8221; the U.S. school  boards, family courts, abortion clinics. They are the ones who swear that Bible is not for spanking. But they are wrong!</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Fowler</title>
		<link>http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-14054</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Fowler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2010 23:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-14054</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Raye&lt;/b&gt; - Thank you for intervening on behalf of your children.  The behavior you describe from your significant other does not sound like healthy discipline.  I hope this chart will help him to find a better way to help your children learn appropriate boundaries and respect for others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Raye</b> &#8211; Thank you for intervening on behalf of your children.  The behavior you describe from your significant other does not sound like healthy discipline.  I hope this chart will help him to find a better way to help your children learn appropriate boundaries and respect for others.</p>
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		<title>By: Raye</title>
		<link>http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-14011</link>
		<dc:creator>Raye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Oct 2010 16:06:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-14011</guid>
		<description>I just came across to spank or not to spank and I really like the chart that specifies the difference. I will definitely blow this up and hang it my house for my significant other to see. I don&#039;t allow him to lay a hand on my children because when he &quot;spanks them&quot; it is out of anger, etc., not just a few swats on the butt, uses sticks, shoes, does uncalled for things and he looks like a psycho so I get in front of him and tell him to bully me and not my kids cause atleast i&#039;m about his size so I will definitely use this chart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just came across to spank or not to spank and I really like the chart that specifies the difference. I will definitely blow this up and hang it my house for my significant other to see. I don&#8217;t allow him to lay a hand on my children because when he &#8220;spanks them&#8221; it is out of anger, etc., not just a few swats on the butt, uses sticks, shoes, does uncalled for things and he looks like a psycho so I get in front of him and tell him to bully me and not my kids cause atleast i&#8217;m about his size so I will definitely use this chart.</p>
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		<title>By: 8 Great Family Rules to Help Any Home at Ray Fowler .org</title>
		<link>http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-7727</link>
		<dc:creator>8 Great Family Rules to Help Any Home at Ray Fowler .org</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 11:58:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-7727</guid>
		<description>[...] post: To Spank or Not To Spank   var addthis_pub = &#039;RnRFowler&#039;; var addthis_language = &#039;en&#039;;var addthis_options = &#039;email, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] post: To Spank or Not To Spank   var addthis_pub = &#8216;RnRFowler&#8217;; var addthis_language = &#8216;en&#8217;;var addthis_options = &#8216;email, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Fowler</title>
		<link>http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-6783</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Fowler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:05:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-6783</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Christi&lt;/b&gt; - You are in a similar position to foster parents or even school teachers who are barred from using any physical discipline.  The principles are the same however.  I like to think of them as the three C&#039;s: 1) clear rules, 2) clear consequences, 3) consistent enforcement.  

1) You must establish clear and reasonable rules from the beginning that everyone understands.  The &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/06/12/eight-great-family-rules-to-help-any-home/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;8 Family Rules&lt;/a&gt; are one example.

2) You should explain what will happen when rules are broken.  Perhaps a warning the first time, and then a consequence, and then a stronger consequence for repeated disobedience.

3) You must be consistent!  Without consistency, the whole thing falls apart.  If you allow rules to be broken without consequences, then all the rules will be viewed as optional.  If you only follow up some of the time, then the children won&#039;t know what to expect when they misbehave.

Of course all acts of discipline, whether physical or non-physical, should be followed up with loving affirmation of the child as outlined in step 4 of the post above.  I hope that helps, and all the best.  Keep me posted on how things are going.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Christi</b> &#8211; You are in a similar position to foster parents or even school teachers who are barred from using any physical discipline.  The principles are the same however.  I like to think of them as the three C&#8217;s: 1) clear rules, 2) clear consequences, 3) consistent enforcement.  </p>
<p>1) You must establish clear and reasonable rules from the beginning that everyone understands.  The <a href="http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/06/12/eight-great-family-rules-to-help-any-home/" rel="nofollow">8 Family Rules</a> are one example.</p>
<p>2) You should explain what will happen when rules are broken.  Perhaps a warning the first time, and then a consequence, and then a stronger consequence for repeated disobedience.</p>
<p>3) You must be consistent!  Without consistency, the whole thing falls apart.  If you allow rules to be broken without consequences, then all the rules will be viewed as optional.  If you only follow up some of the time, then the children won&#8217;t know what to expect when they misbehave.</p>
<p>Of course all acts of discipline, whether physical or non-physical, should be followed up with loving affirmation of the child as outlined in step 4 of the post above.  I hope that helps, and all the best.  Keep me posted on how things are going.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Fowler</title>
		<link>http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-6782</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Fowler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 12:45:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-6782</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Dustin&lt;/b&gt; - I have deleted your comment to Becca because I feel it was disrespectful towards her.  My comment policy can be found on my &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.rayfowler.org/personal-profile/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;personal profile page here&lt;/a&gt;:  

&quot;Please feel free to interact using the comments section. You do not have to be a Christian or agree with a post in order to comment. I just ask that everyone respect each other in the comments and tell us what you think!&quot;

&lt;b&gt;Becca&lt;/b&gt; - I am sorry you were subjected to a verbal attack on my blog.  I delete inappropriate comments as soon as I find them, but I was sleeping when this one came through. Thank you for your clear, clean, and direct response above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Dustin</b> &#8211; I have deleted your comment to Becca because I feel it was disrespectful towards her.  My comment policy can be found on my <a href="http://www.rayfowler.org/personal-profile/" rel="nofollow">personal profile page here</a>:  </p>
<p>&#8220;Please feel free to interact using the comments section. You do not have to be a Christian or agree with a post in order to comment. I just ask that everyone respect each other in the comments and tell us what you think!&#8221;</p>
<p><b>Becca</b> &#8211; I am sorry you were subjected to a verbal attack on my blog.  I delete inappropriate comments as soon as I find them, but I was sleeping when this one came through. Thank you for your clear, clean, and direct response above.</p>
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		<title>By: Becca</title>
		<link>http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-6781</link>
		<dc:creator>Becca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 08:08:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-6781</guid>
		<description>Dustin,
You&#039;re comment was the rudest thing anyone has ever said to me.  If you have a problem with me, email me at becca.mcneal@colorado.edu.
You are on a Christian website and yet you have the audacity to call a stranger a &quot;nutcase&quot;.
The golden rule, please.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dustin,<br />
You&#8217;re comment was the rudest thing anyone has ever said to me.  If you have a problem with me, email me at <a href="mailto:becca.mcneal@colorado.edu">becca.mcneal@colorado.edu</a>.<br />
You are on a Christian website and yet you have the audacity to call a stranger a &#8220;nutcase&#8221;.<br />
The golden rule, please.</p>
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		<title>By: Dustin</title>
		<link>http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-6780</link>
		<dc:creator>Dustin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 05:34:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-6780</guid>
		<description>Comment deleted by administrator.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comment deleted by administrator.</p>
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		<title>By: Christi</title>
		<link>http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-6776</link>
		<dc:creator>Christi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:24:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rayfowler.org/2007/11/28/to-spank-or-not-to-spank/#comment-6776</guid>
		<description>I have posted on the 8 family rules and read this post today.  This is a concern of mine when we take on our responsibilities at the children&#039;s ranch.  My husband and I use a switch to spank our children just as you described above.  It has worked wonders and we very seldom have to use this means of dicipline.  HOWEVER, we have been told that spanking will not be an option at the ranch.  I am a bit concerned with this, but I also realize these children will be children with issues of violence and abuse and maybe spanking will not be a good means of dicipline.  Do you have any suggestions?  I am sure we will be receiving training but I would love to hear your comments since I am in complete agreement with what you believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have posted on the 8 family rules and read this post today.  This is a concern of mine when we take on our responsibilities at the children&#8217;s ranch.  My husband and I use a switch to spank our children just as you described above.  It has worked wonders and we very seldom have to use this means of dicipline.  HOWEVER, we have been told that spanking will not be an option at the ranch.  I am a bit concerned with this, but I also realize these children will be children with issues of violence and abuse and maybe spanking will not be a good means of dicipline.  Do you have any suggestions?  I am sure we will be receiving training but I would love to hear your comments since I am in complete agreement with what you believe.</p>
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